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Whats next? Anyone who wears "women's" clothing is trans? Black graphic T. If you saw someone dressed as a woman convincingly and she was honest about her medical history in your mind they are not trans.

That's really messed up. To the above who said transsexuals and transgender are different. Transsexual is a subset of transgender.

Traps if the were real would fall somewhere or the other on the transgender specturm. In Japanese the term is otokonoko which does not translate to trap but to transgender and some Japanese transsexuals who are post op call themselves otokonoko too in which case it means transsexual.

Traps more heavily represent a fantasy of Androgyny and Bisexuality than they do transgender, even if some of these characters can be icons for real life trans people.

But that's the point, while fantasy is subjective it also acts as a sleeper agent that slowly builds tolerance in people who might of otherwise been shocked from a first exposure to an androgynous or transgender person.

So there is no way Traps can breed or even be represented as Transphobia. To further push my point that Traps are hardly just Transgenders. Here's a list of all the trap characters that immediately come to mind, and their reasons for becoming "traps";.

So calling Traps a Transphobic term is ridiculous. At worst it would make people… Androgynous-phobic. I don't think there is a word for such a thing.

Now this is a good reply. Wheter or not a particular character would be transgnder depends on the plot In your list above only one of those is not trans, Hime Arikawa from Himegoto is doing it because he was forced Although there are points in the anime where it seems voluntary.

As for the idea all the rest of those people are trans by the definiton given in the dictionary. If you violate gender norms then you fall under the broad umbrella of transgender.

Yes even a male identified but bigender acting person like Hideyoshi. Again immagine if someone like Hideyoshi was real and stepped off the page.

What would they be? While transgender includes every kind of gender non-conformity. It is clear to the blind a biological male who of their own accord dresses as a female on a regular basis is gender non-conforming and therefore trans.

Don't worry though finding actual trans women attractive does not make you gay. I'd argue it's a bit more gay to be attracted to someone ID'ing as a male but dressing as a woman.

I mean what is it all about wanting to get sexy with someone who has IT but not being a bit hairy dude? Here are some IRL examples to enjoy and reflect on what source matterial the Manga artist are working from.

BE Asia "10 Transgender celebrities in Asia". Which if that is all you've ever heard no wonder folks thing we are crazy. A Shout Out to Serious Jones for a really thoughtful comment.

You can have your word to use but you have to select when, and where, and how and who with to use it.

Denying the reality of who Otokonoko "traps" are meant to represent in anime would be like saying …. IDK Goku and the other DragonBall characters don't represent martial artist because they are able to fly… or something.

It's not all going to be like real life … but we know the kind of person he'd be… like Bruce Lee or something. The critical flaw in your argument is that you claim that gender non-conformance makes one transgender.

To put it bluntly, it doesn't. For example, having no sense of gender norms, and thus dressing in feminine clothing, but still identifying as male, means the character is only gender non-conforming.

What if a cis male is sexually attracted to "traps"? Does that make him transphobic op? If you answer yes then that would be like saying that a guy that is sexually attracted to men is homophobic.

You know what pisses me off? People who say they own this site despite the fact that they don't obey the rules. You don't own this site, you don't represent the entire community, and even if you did you'd be a bad owner given you're kinda breaking the rules.

Speaking of which, if any of you in this thread keep this behaviour up, the mods will lock this thread considering how off-topic and non-serious this has went.

Either follow the debate etiquette or don't. That's why we have Riff Raff here. I personally am annoyed by transphobia [not trans myself, but I have many transgender friends], but traps are literally just crossdressing porn, and for that matter 'trap' usually refers to a drawing, not a real fucking person.

Of course being attracted to trans characters, I from now on refuse to call them "traps" is not transphobic. Who ever said that?

Spaghetto, Please read the dictionary definition I cited. That is not a personal opinion. In fact I can go one stronger. Compare your favorite traps to this list of criteria and tell me they each don't fit at least two.

Remember in the below they don't need to fit all of them just two. I have bolded the ones that I think apply without question to almost any "trap" you can think of.

Jun Watarase, Uhm ticks all of those boxes and even had a magical sex change and was thanking God for it.

That is the answer to the childish prayers of every transwoman almost all of us recall having prayed as a kid to wakeup and somehow be a girl.

You can't argue that one. In the middle characters like Hibari of "Stop! Both of them dress, act and live as women but like Jun they will use the fact that they are biologically male if it suits them … like in choosing to bathe with the men.

Now can we move on to whether or not the word trap itself is transphobic? What is the point in continuing to deny that those characters represent who they clearly represent?

Why is it so crucial to so many people that "traps" not be transgender? I really want to know. Because adding political nonsense where there is none is usually done for moral guardians to regulate everything, so if they are not considered transgender which I don't think they are anyway we can keep them away from anime in general.

Trap is only as transphobic as you want it to be. It's the same with any other word really. If you choose to be offended by it, than it's transphobic, if not, than it ain't.

That'd be like saying that you support gay marriage but then say that guys who look at porn of other guys is abhorrent behavior.

At the end of the day you can't spell "sexuality" without the word "sex". I am not shaming people for being attracted to trans characters.

This is an interesting question and it is at the heart of the matter. You think it would be shameful to be attracted to even a character that meets every definition of a transgender woman let alone a real life transwoman?

Stating that a word or is offensive to a particular community is not political it is about politeness.

Right now the conversation has been about the mere definition of transgender. These characters are from the same culture where this Satsuki a real life Otokonoko lit translation "male daughter", the word used in Japanese for both the anime characters and for everyone from a crossdresser to a full blown transsexual, talks about how not trans ready the hospitals in Japan can be.

As a matter of fact if we look at the google translate of it. Born as a boy, I feel a sense of incongruity in my own sex from a young age.

Based on what I have read many of you would think because she says "born as a boy" that means she's not trans.

That is all any of the characters in anime you all love say about themselves. Now, there is a Japanese transwoman pretty much telling you exactly what I have been saying.

Can we move on to the much more interesting conversation. Given that "trap" refers to transgender people, is that an offensive term in general why and why not.

Remember it is established that they are transgender. Tell me a transwoman why being called a trap should not be offensive.

Your entire point here runs down to "liking feminine things is a trans red flag because the dictionary". Dang sis, I guess boys really shouldn't like dolls.

The dictionary is a limited tool when you're discussing terminology for overlapping terms. Point in case, here's the Merriam definition for homosexual:.

According to your logic, Bisexuals are now Homosexual since they check the dictionary checkboxes. Different terms can have overlap in some areas but still cover different groups because they lack overlap in other areas, which is exactly why they became different terms to begin with.

Saying a cartoon character is a trap in a playful manor doesn't even compare to some of the disgusting shit some people say online about trans people.

This is the same kind of false equivalency assigned to people who say nigga in a rap song is comparable to a boss or someone in a place of power calling someone a filthy nigger.

The answer to that is that members of a group can use a word that would otherwise be an insult. A black person saying Nigga works.

Try doing that IRL if you are not black and … find out what happens. It is the same with trap, tranny, shemale, any of those words used by a transgender person, or in certain restricted context can be OK.

Outside those uses they can be a huge no no. I am black and when people say nigga in front of me I really don't give a shit… I know some people do get offended.

Its almost like the persons personal experiences, context, and intent play into how a word is used. Saying this is trap porn this is shemale porn or this is trans porn all have the exact same context and intent they are just different words.

Whether someone gets offended by that word is up to them and whether or not someone cares enough to police their words is up to that person.

You're also assuming a trans person will be automatically offended if they hear a word. If I had a trans friend who did get upset over me saying trap then it wouldn't personally bother me to stop saying it around them, other wise when I default to saying something or someone is a trap usually an anime photo its not me trying to fucking demonize a community of people, its just a catchy word.

Im sorry that word bothers you but I really don't think most people who use it are trying to be shitty and trying to police peoples words isn't going to help.

So if anything that wouldn't even be offensive to trans girls that would be offensive to drag queens and cross dressers. Transgender is an umbrella term for all gender variance.

So even if we thought them just guys who Id as guys and have no clinical gender identity disorder they would be transgender.

Transsexual means having hormones and surgery in slang terms in the community we call both "trans". You can only know if someone is transgender or transsexual by asking them but you can know they are trans by looking at them.

A guy dressed as a girl for any purpose who does that on a regular basis, for any purpose or motivation, is trans. Those are both simple ways of saying what the dictionary and the Diagnostic manual of the American Psychological association say.

So even if you don't think a given "trap" is a transsexual by wearing girls clothes all the time and trying to pass you can assume they are transgender.

Even the words used in Japanese to describe these characters are identical to the ones used for real life Japanese transgender people and those words do not translate to "trap".

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